Tag: trinity
The length of the debate is 2hr45mins
Dale Tuggy’s Opening Statement
- The Father is the only God (1 Cor 8.6; John 8.54)
- Jesus is not God but messiah, God’s agent (1 Tim 2.5)
Compare 2 hypotheses in light of 6 indisputable facts
1. NT believe Father is one God alone
2. NT believes one God is the Trinity
6 Indisputable Facts
- All 4 Gospels feature a “mere man” compatible main thesis
- John 20.31 -> that’s it? nothing about Jesus being God
- The word God nearly always refers to the Father and no word refers to the Trinity
- they should sometimes use the word God to refer to the Trinity
but they never do - in the NT God is nearly always the Father
- no more than 8 texts where the term God refers to the Son
- a human can be referred to with the title God
- Jesus makes that point in Psalm 82
- they should sometimes use the word God to refer to the Trinity
- Only the Father and Jesus are worshiped
- no worship of the Trinity
- no worship of all 3 persons -> no spirit!
- Phil 2.11 says that Jesus’ worship is indirectly to God
- by worshiping Jesus we worship the creator
- That God is triune or tripersonal is never clearly asserted in the NT
- poor Jewish theology is always assumed
- Jesus never gets around to telling us that God is 3 persons in 1 essence
- No controversy about the Trinity in the NT
- Trinity theories always engender controversy
- the NT controversies are over whether Jesus is messiah and whether non-Jews can be saved apart from Torah observance
- No NT author lifts a finger to limit or qualify clear implications of the son’s limitations
- Jesus got his mission, authority, message, power, from God
- no author shows any embarrassment that Jesus is subordinate
Jesus is a real human man
- with a real human mother
- but with God as his father
- he was brought into existence in the womb
the one God is eternal
- why aren’t the NT authors at all concerned to exert the eternal existence of the son
- will grant pre-existence but not eternality for purposes of this debate
Categories
Mars Hill by David Loeser
I remember wrestling with the Lord over what he was showing me about himself through the scripture but the moment I surrendered, what a great peace that came over me. I remember crying out to the Lord and I felt this overwhelming unction to write and as I did God began to speak. Many may not see or may never see but I know without a doubt I heard him speak to me.
Here is what I wrote and He answered my hearts cry!
Mars Hill
I was standing there on Mars Hill
Worshipping a God I knew was real,
He had a name I did not know
Until His Son began to Show.
When I first saw Him I knew He was three,
Well, did I, or is this what man said to me,
As I looked at His Word this had to be wrong,
God Had been saying He was One all along.
So as I searched, it was not three but one,
Then I began to see that One sent His Son,
His name was Jesus, so that’s Gods name I see,
Well, did I, or is this what man said to me.
God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob reveal unto me,
Who you are so that way I can see,
Man says one that is three or two that’s the same,
Am I crazy, I feel like I’m Going insane.
Calm down my son, soon you will see,
Look at what’s written and you will know me.
Yes Father, I believe that it’s true,
Open my eyes so I can see you.
Look at Jesus.
I did, but He is your Son.
Yes, and He tells you that I am the One,
He is not me, but the One whom I said,
Will be the judge of the quick and the dead,
Look at Him trust Him, because His Word is true,
He does nothing of himself, but what I showed him to do.
Now you follow Him and give worship to me,
And you will be what I’ve created you to be,
Speak life to the world from the Words that I spoke,
Don’t be afraid of Man because they’ve seen what I wrote.
I love you my son, I’ve put my peace deep within,
To guide you where I’ve said when you don’t understand,
Trust me, Trust my Son, which you become one,
In us by My Spirit, My will be done.
Theological Metamorphosis by Bentley C.F. Chan
MOVING FROM TRINITARIANISM TOWARDS BIBLICAL MONOTHEISM
Theological Metamorphosis 2nd Edition
- This paper, presented at the 2015 Atlanta Theological Conference, consists of two parts.
- In Part One, I explain the “theological metamorphosis” of Christian Disciples Church which took place around 2005 when we en masse, as a whole church spanning three continents, abandoned our longstanding belief in trinitarianism. In so doing, we were moving towards what is appropriately called “biblical monotheism,” in which no one but the Father of Jesus Christ is true God. A Bible verse that impelled us in this direction was John 17:3 in which Jesus declares that his Father is “the only true God”.
- In Part Two, the longer of the two parts, we re-evaluate the deity of Jesus Christ in John’s Gospel. The sole authority for our study will be the Scriptures, the inspired Word of God. There will be no further mention of our church.
English (Free PDF)
Categories
Theological Metamorphosis
Theological Metamorphosis by Bentley C.F. Chan
MOVING FROM TRINITARIANISM TOWARDS BIBLICAL MONOTHEISM
Theological Metamorphosis 2nd Edition
- This paper, presented at the 2015 Atlanta Theological Conference, consists of two parts.
- In Part One, I explain the “theological metamorphosis” of Christian Disciples Church which took place around 2005 when we en masse, as a whole church spanning three continents, abandoned our longstanding belief in trinitarianism. In so doing, we were moving towards what is appropriately called “biblical monotheism,” in which no one but the Father of Jesus Christ is true God. A Bible verse that impelled us in this direction was John 17:3 in which Jesus declares that his Father is “the only true God”.
- In Part Two, the longer of the two parts, we re-evaluate the deity of Jesus Christ in John’s Gospel. The sole authority for our study will be the Scriptures, the inspired Word of God. There will be no further mention of our church.
English (Free PDF)
Why would God lie?
God said, audibly, on two occasions: This is my beloved son.
“This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17; also found in Mark 1:11 and Luke 3:22).
And again,
“This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him” (Matthew 17:5; also Mark 9:7 and Luke 9:35).
This is out of the mouth of God at two different events as testified by three different writers.
Being as He is Spirit, God can neither be “with” Himself nor “in” Himself; to think otherwise is to grossly misunderstand the God of the Jews, of whom Jesus said, “we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22).
We know that men lie. But why would God lie?
God who cannot lie (i.e., Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 6:18) called Jesus someone third person to Himself. He said this by referring to His son with the personal pronoun “him,” [Gr. autoú] in contradistinction to Himself as “I.”
Was God trying to put a stumbling block in our way to keep us from knowing the truth?
“Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one” (James 1:13–15).
We have God Himself doing the talking in calling Jesus His son, not some lying angel (i.e. 1 Kings 22:19-23).
What would be God’s purpose for being at all vague, let alone misleading, about the single most important truth given to man from God? Is there any other truth more important than this since it is regarding mankind’s saving relationship with God through His son?
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.” (John 14:6)
What “truth” could possibly be more important among mankind than God’s true relationship with His son? Why then would God lie about it? Why would God even be vague about it? Was God ashamed of His own gospel?
“Let God be true, but every man a liar” (Romans 3:4).
Do you believe that? What if God actually was true and every man was a liar?
If God was completely, succinctly and accurately telling the truth in both of those audible proclamations of His, then both Onenessianism and Trinitarianism are falsehoods from the lies of men.
“Let God be true, but every man a liar”! Are you hearing me?
“If we receive the witness of men [Oneness, Trinitarian or Arian], the witness of God is greater; for this is God’s testimony which he has testified concerning his Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who doesn’t believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son” (1 John 5:9-10).
This is a really, really big deal!
According to God Himself, Jesus is God’s son, not God. Otherwise God could have, and should have, told us when He had these two perfect opportunities. But God, who cannot lie testified to us something different than either Trinity or Oneness. He testified audibly that Jesus the Anointed One is His son! He could have done more good by not saying anything IF (big if) the Oneness or the Trinity is true!
But rather, God used His perfect opportunity to the utmost to state in the clearest terms possible, this most important truth of all: that Jesus the Anointed is His son. Furthermore, God spoke of His son in personal pronouns. That means God also used His perfect opportunity to clearly indicate that His son is a separate and distinct person from He, God, Himself! Why do you question God? To what end will it get you to question God to the point of making His words out to be lies on multiple levels?
If you want to question the true Son of God doctrine, then be forewarned that in doing so you are calling God a liar and men true. In other words, you are calling good evil and evil good at the highest possible level–the very mouth of God!
Who then is this son of God? He is just precisely who God, who cannot lie, first proclaimed him to be, nothing more and nothing less:
“When your days are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall proceed out of your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son…”
(2 Samuel 7:12–14).
This is the son of the Father in truth!
“…From God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth…” (1 John 1:3).
And if you don’t believe in the true son and Father as the Bible defines them, then hereby know, that the Bible calls you “against-the-anointed-one” (antichrist)!
“Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Anointed One? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son, the same doesn’t have the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also” (1 John 2:22–23).
So go ahead now, choose whom you will serve. Go on and kick against these facts! Go ahead now and devise your cunning fables, private interpretations and traditions of men that you feel counter these very clear, once audible proclamations of God!
But before you do, please, I beseech you, answer me this one question:
WHY WOULD GOD LIE?
“But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”
(Joshua 24:15).
PS
See also this Presentation
Categories
Cerberus = Trinity
Need one say anymore!
1st TV Program – Joel Hemphill – To God Be The Glory
2nd TV Program
3rd TV Program
4th TV Program
5th TV Program
The concept of incarnation is indeed in the Scriptures; showing it roots to be totally pagan. Trinitarian/Oneness believers – Turn from such vanities and turn to the living GOD whom Jesus the Messiah, Paul and Barnabas worshiped!
Age To Come 